Comments on: Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/ Stuart Herbert's PHP Blog - Architecture, Code, and Hosting Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:44:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Federico Feroldi’s blog » Blog Archive » links for 2007-11-12 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-8001 Federico Feroldi’s blog » Blog Archive » links for 2007-11-12 Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:24:17 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-8001 [...] Stu On PHP - » Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom (tags: php php5 business php4 migration ruby rubyonrails web frameworks) [...] [...] Stu On PHP - » Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom (tags: php php5 business php4 migration ruby rubyonrails web frameworks) [...]

]]> By: William Betts http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-7247 William Betts Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:43:48 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-7247 I guess I'm lucky, because everywhere I've been at in the last 2 years has used PHP5. I can see why the pointy hairs wouldn't want to change their entire code base. The cost of doing that would out weigh the benefits. I guess I’m lucky, because everywhere I’ve been at in the last 2 years has used PHP5. I can see why the pointy hairs wouldn’t want to change their entire code base. The cost of doing that would out weigh the benefits.

]]> By: David Goulden http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2960 David Goulden Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:37:05 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2960 If I wanted to be a nasty cynic I could say I'm not seeing is the commercial arguments for Zend to push PHP5 ;-) - seriously, until the GoPHP5 campaign came up, there was little active community discussion about it and from our perspective, almost all new development is done in PHP5. It just wasn't really an ongoing slog argument that we needed to have, it was a given, unless you were stuck with RHEL 3&4 official RPMs. If I'm already wearing a Zend apologist hat here's a little more perspective (again, not a Zend corporate official blah blah blah): For a start, since 2005 we've offered Zend Core, first for IBM DB2, then Oracle, then for Microsoft Windows and also for IBM i5/OS. If you want commercially supported PHP with corporate backing from Big IT, we offer it and it's PHP 5. Only. Frameworks. No need to go into Zend Framework details here, but of course one of the major considerations was to showcase PHP 5 goodies. The RoR thing you've mentioned before, but frankly from where I sit, I've seen 2 companies in the last 3 years move from PHP to Ruby: 1 was a Czech adult entertainment company, 1 was small British media-centric web dev company. Possibly I'm hanging around the wrong people but I doubt it, my customers are damn smart, make their technology choices very soberly and are very savvy about the business wisdom of adapting quickly to new technologies. Of course, your company is selling a solution, not a language and development process, so you're inevitably having different types of discussions with customers. Lastly, moving to PHP 5 is something Zend of course actively push with larger customers (smaller ones tend to have less complicated IT set ups and can move quicker) especially via our professional services engagements such as training (PHP 5 certification for starters), architectural reviews and audits, and PHP industrialization projects. I pray you have no any idea how complicated, political and time consuming it is to get a large telecoms company to change it's architectural choices. An example: It took 1 year to even get a decision made to move a large European telco from PHP4 ->5 (ironically the same company has the largest PHP5 cluster I've heard of in Europe with over 2500 servers) - those developers just went ahead and used it regardless. That's 1 year of learning the company politics, countless meetings, developing a strategy and taking some (considerable) money in the meantime for other services & products. So there's very little commercial reason for Zend to actively push PHP5 for it's own sake. Of course we influence where we can, but when customers are stuck with PHP4 for whatever reason (generally a very large code base or geographically dispersed installed base) we have to respect that. They'll move eventually and it's just not worth the (very human intensive) effort on our part. Nick @1 - Debian may have higher standards, but from what I see, Red Hat flies well with the economic decision makers (and we do likes the Debian) Just waiting to see the Perl, Erlang and Lua fans start recommending their technology of choice here in response to Fabien @3 ;-) If I wanted to be a nasty cynic I could say I’m not seeing is the commercial arguments for Zend to push PHP5 ;-) - seriously, until the GoPHP5 campaign came up, there was little active community discussion about it and from our perspective, almost all new development is done in PHP5. It just wasn’t really an ongoing slog argument that we needed to have, it was a given, unless you were stuck with RHEL 3&4 official RPMs. If I’m already wearing a Zend apologist hat here’s a little more perspective (again, not a Zend corporate official blah blah blah):

For a start, since 2005 we’ve offered Zend Core, first for IBM DB2, then Oracle, then for Microsoft Windows and also for IBM i5/OS. If you want commercially supported PHP with corporate backing from Big IT, we offer it and it’s PHP 5. Only.

Frameworks. No need to go into Zend Framework details here, but of course one of the major considerations was to showcase PHP 5 goodies. The RoR thing you’ve mentioned before, but frankly from where I sit, I’ve seen 2 companies in the last 3 years move from PHP to Ruby: 1 was a Czech adult entertainment company, 1 was small British media-centric web dev company. Possibly I’m hanging around the wrong people but I doubt it, my customers are damn smart, make their technology choices very soberly and are very savvy about the business wisdom of adapting quickly to new technologies. Of course, your company is selling a solution, not a language and development process, so you’re inevitably having different types of discussions with customers.

Lastly, moving to PHP 5 is something Zend of course actively push with larger customers (smaller ones tend to have less complicated IT set ups and can move quicker) especially via our professional services engagements such as training (PHP 5 certification for starters), architectural reviews and audits, and PHP industrialization projects. I pray you have no any idea how complicated, political and time consuming it is to get a large telecoms company to change it’s architectural choices. An example: It took 1 year to even get a decision made to move a large European telco from PHP4 ->5 (ironically the same company has the largest PHP5 cluster I’ve heard of in Europe with over 2500 servers) - those developers just went ahead and used it regardless. That’s 1 year of learning the company politics, countless meetings, developing a strategy and taking some (considerable) money in the meantime for other services & products. So there’s very little commercial reason for Zend to actively push PHP5 for it’s own sake. Of course we influence where we can, but when customers are stuck with PHP4 for whatever reason (generally a very large code base or geographically dispersed installed base) we have to respect that. They’ll move eventually and it’s just not worth the (very human intensive) effort on our part.

Nick @1 - Debian may have higher standards, but from what I see, Red Hat flies well with the economic decision makers (and we do likes the Debian)

Just waiting to see the Perl, Erlang and Lua fans start recommending their technology of choice here in response to Fabien @3 ;-)

]]> By: developercast.com » Stuart Herbert’s Blog: Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2835 developercast.com » Stuart Herbert’s Blog: Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:26:34 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2835 [...] Stuart Herbert looks today at some of the reasoning behind the push to move developers out to PHP5 - specifically that there’s a lack of commercial-related discussion about what issues there might be. What I’m not seeing are the commercial arguments to move to PHP 5 (/me points an accusing finger at the folks from Zend, with whom this discussion has been had before). Businesses will only make the move when there is something to gain from the effort, when the rewards of switching are more than the cost of doing nothing. So let’s see if we can find some reasons to chivvy them along! [...] [...] Stuart Herbert looks today at some of the reasoning behind the push to move developers out to PHP5 - specifically that there’s a lack of commercial-related discussion about what issues there might be. What I’m not seeing are the commercial arguments to move to PHP 5 (/me points an accusing finger at the folks from Zend, with whom this discussion has been had before). Businesses will only make the move when there is something to gain from the effort, when the rewards of switching are more than the cost of doing nothing. So let’s see if we can find some reasons to chivvy them along! [...]

]]> By: Fabien http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2827 Fabien Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:36:00 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2827 You can also give a chance to Django which is a Python web framework. It has been used for example in Pownce. http://www.djangoproject.com/ You can also give a chance to Django which is a Python web framework. It has been used for example in Pownce.

http://www.djangoproject.com/

]]> By: Mrasnika’s Lair » Интересно за четене и коментиране http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2814 Mrasnika’s Lair » Интересно за четене и коментиране Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:34:31 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2814 [...] Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom [...] [...] Arguments From The Boardroom, Not The Bedroom [...]

]]> By: nick http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2807 nick Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:56:54 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2007/07/30/arguments-from-the-boardroom-not-the-bedroom/#comment-2807 I'm not sure the "update now or we won't give you security updates" is going to fly well with decision-makers. But fortunately Debian has higher standards in that regard than the php.net team. I’m not sure the “update now or we won’t give you security updates” is going to fly well with decision-makers.
But fortunately Debian has higher standards in that regard than the php.net team.

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