Comments on: On Management, False Sirens, And The Threat of Rails http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/ Stuart Herbert's PHP Blog - Architecture, Code, and Hosting Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:11:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Si http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22858 Si Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:17:52 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22858 @Mauriel: Been watching too much Dragons Den? ;) Ruby is one of the youngest languages out there btw, so I'm not too sure what you mean about 13 years. Talking frameworks specifically, it gets even better: Rails was released around 2004. To become one of the defacto web frameworks in 4 years is a pretty big achievement do you not think? @Mauriel: Been watching too much Dragons Den? ;)

Ruby is one of the youngest languages out there btw, so I’m not too sure what you mean about 13 years. Talking frameworks specifically, it gets even better: Rails was released around 2004. To become one of the defacto web frameworks in 4 years is a pretty big achievement do you not think?

]]> By: Bill http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22404 Bill Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:37:05 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22404 Mauriel is right, and don't even get me started on Lisp. That sh_t is whackt! Mauriel is right, and don’t even get me started on Lisp. That sh_t is whackt!

]]> By: Mauriel http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22286 Mauriel Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:04:54 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22286 Ruby syntax is horribly, and it's not compatible with popular languages, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript. That means that if you invest your time learning Ruby then you are stuck to Ruby's syntax, something similar happened to me with Delphi. I wasted 3 years of my life for nothing. Chances of getting a job as a Ruby programmer is one in a million. So, I don't care about the future of Ruby, it's been around for more than 13 years. For that reason, I'm out. Ruby syntax is horribly, and it’s not compatible with popular languages, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript. That means that if you invest your time learning Ruby then you are stuck to Ruby’s syntax, something similar happened to me with Delphi. I wasted 3 years of my life for nothing.

Chances of getting a job as a Ruby programmer is one in a million. So, I don’t care about the future of Ruby, it’s been around for more than 13 years. For that reason, I’m out.

]]> By: Interactive PHP Shell (a la Python) | Lusion Technologies - Web Hosting Blog http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22278 Interactive PHP Shell (a la Python) | Lusion Technologies - Web Hosting Blog Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:28:24 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22278 [...] web development language but lately I’ve been tempted to try out Ruby on Rails (although an article from ‘Stuart Herbert on PHP’ changed my mind) and Python (I use it for all my small scripts - but havn’t given mod_python [...] [...] web development language but lately I’ve been tempted to try out Ruby on Rails (although an article from ‘Stuart Herbert on PHP’ changed my mind) and Python (I use it for all my small scripts - but havn’t given mod_python [...]

]]> By: markus http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22272 markus Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:01:28 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22272 There is a little discrepancy. On the one hand you say Rails is not the web-app that will dethrone PHP. I can agree on that, or live with it. However on the other hand you say that ruby is a better language than php (I agree on that as well). The same I believe is valid for python (although I really think python's OOP is inferior to ruby's model. Carring around implicit self makes python uglier than it should be, the indent can actually be an advantage, but python gave it away with the choice to use implicit self) So who will dethrone php then? Rails is simply the biggest contender out there. Any other framework will always have to challenge rails AND php (on the other side). phpBB for example may be ugly as hell, but it is very useful, and no rails framework, nor any ruby framework up to date, can dethrone. Python neither has a challenger here... trac is cool but simply not a forum. "My prediction is that a Rails-like framework, but built using a PHP-style mod_ruby and execute-again architecture, would have a real chance at displacing PHP. " I dont so much think the problem is rails, or whatever. Dethroning php will take a long long time... unfortunately. Because php, as ugly as it may be, has clearly shown that there is a NEED for these things (it claims to solve...) There is a little discrepancy.

On the one hand you say Rails is not the web-app that will dethrone PHP.
I can agree on that, or live with it.

However on the other hand you say that ruby is a better language than php (I agree on that as well).

The same I believe is valid for python (although I really think python’s OOP is inferior to ruby’s model. Carring around implicit self makes python uglier than it should be, the indent can actually be an advantage, but python gave it away with the choice to use implicit self)

So who will dethrone php then?

Rails is simply the biggest contender out there. Any other framework will always have to challenge rails AND php (on the other side).
phpBB for example may be ugly as hell, but it is very useful, and no rails framework, nor any ruby framework up to date, can dethrone. Python neither has a challenger here… trac is cool but simply not a forum.

“My prediction is that a Rails-like framework, but built using a PHP-style mod_ruby and execute-again architecture, would have a real chance at displacing PHP. ”

I dont so much think the problem is rails, or whatever. Dethroning php will take a long long time… unfortunately. Because php, as ugly as it may be, has clearly shown that there is a NEED for these things (it claims to solve…)

]]> By: David Salgado http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22268 David Salgado Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:42:38 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22268 Hi there These days I'm a more or less full-time Rails coder, with a background in building highly-scalable mod_perl apps. I also do a bit of PHP, and maintain a mod_php app. taking about 4M hits/day. I'm curious what you think are the bad smells around mod_rails. Not that I'm disagreeing, but the Rails community clearly sees mod_rails as the holy grail of making Rails app. deployment easy enough to be comparable to PHP. Where do you feel mod_rails falls down? Also, I definitely have to agree with Luke that Rails code is way easier to debug than PHP. I've yet to find a step-through debugger for PHP that isn't a total pain to set up, whereas ruby/Rails comes with that built in. Cheers David Hi there

These days I’m a more or less full-time Rails coder, with a background in building highly-scalable mod_perl apps. I also do a bit of PHP, and maintain a mod_php app. taking about 4M hits/day.

I’m curious what you think are the bad smells around mod_rails. Not that I’m disagreeing, but the Rails community clearly sees mod_rails as the holy grail of making Rails app. deployment easy enough to be comparable to PHP.

Where do you feel mod_rails falls down?

Also, I definitely have to agree with Luke that Rails code is way easier to debug than PHP. I’ve yet to find a step-through debugger for PHP that isn’t a total pain to set up, whereas ruby/Rails comes with that built in.

Cheers

David

]]> By: OOP does not equal portable or shareable http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22264 OOP does not equal portable or shareable Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:41:14 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22264 [...] portable or shareable by brianlmoon Sat, Jun 7, 2008 01:45 AM So, just now, I was reading a good Rails post by Stuart Herbert and nodding my head along.  I have not gotten into the Rails bashing fun on my blog, but I do [...] [...] portable or shareable by brianlmoon Sat, Jun 7, 2008 01:45 AM So, just now, I was reading a good Rails post by Stuart Herbert and nodding my head along.  I have not gotten into the Rails bashing fun on my blog, but I do [...]

]]> By: Luke http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22263 Luke Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:34:53 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22263 I'm a 4 year veteran of PHP and I've just started using Ruby and Rails, and I can tell you there's no way known PHP is easier to debug. Ruby has debugging hooks built into the language, letting you log the exact execution path with just a few lines of code. A one-command install is available for ruby-debug, which drops ANY Ruby application (Rails web-apps too, when using the script/server command) to an interactive console at the point the debugger command was issued. If you're interested in finding out more about Ruby/Rails's debugging capabilities, there's a few screencasts up at http://railscasts.com/tags/10. I’m a 4 year veteran of PHP and I’ve just started using Ruby and Rails, and I can tell you there’s no way known PHP is easier to debug. Ruby has debugging hooks built into the language, letting you log the exact execution path with just a few lines of code. A one-command install is available for ruby-debug, which drops ANY Ruby application (Rails web-apps too, when using the script/server command) to an interactive console at the point the debugger command was issued.

If you’re interested in finding out more about Ruby/Rails’s debugging capabilities, there’s a few screencasts up at http://railscasts.com/tags/10.

]]> By: PHP Coding School » Blog Archive » php code [2008-06-06 20:12:54] http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22231 PHP Coding School » Blog Archive » php code [2008-06-06 20:12:54] Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:30:59 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22231 [...] On Management, False Sirens, And The Threat of Rails By Stuart Herbert It is easier to track down and eliminate bugs in PHP applications. No persistent processes mean that PHP applications are deterministic. PHP code is also much simpler to work through and debug. It is easier to scale applications written … Stuart Herbert On PHP - http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php [...] [...] On Management, False Sirens, And The Threat of Rails By Stuart Herbert It is easier to track down and eliminate bugs in PHP applications. No persistent processes mean that PHP applications are deterministic. PHP code is also much simpler to work through and debug. It is easier to scale applications written … Stuart Herbert On PHP - http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php [...]

]]> By: OOP does not equal portable or shareable « Ramblings of a web guy http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/2008/06/06/on-management-false-sirens-and-the-threat-of-rails/#comment-22227 OOP does not equal portable or shareable « Ramblings of a web guy Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:30:45 +0000 http://blog.stuartherbert.com/php/?p=43#comment-22227 [...] Posted in PHP, Programming by Brian Moon on the June 6, 2008 So, just now, I was reading a good Rails post by Stuart Herbert and nodding my head along.  I have not gotten into the Rails bashing fun on my blog, but I do poke [...] [...] Posted in PHP, Programming by Brian Moon on the June 6, 2008 So, just now, I was reading a good Rails post by Stuart Herbert and nodding my head along.  I have not gotten into the Rails bashing fun on my blog, but I do poke [...]

]]>